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	<title>Comments for Control Freaks</title>
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	<description>Wyoming Weed Science in (almost) Real Time</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:54:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by LJ Villanueva&#039;s Research Blog &#187; A weak defense of the anti-GMO pig study</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13151</link>
		<dc:creator>LJ Villanueva&#039;s Research Blog &#187; A weak defense of the anti-GMO pig study</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] have destroyed their arguments (for example here, here, and here). The activist that I got into a discussion with, sent a long email with the replies from the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have destroyed their arguments (for example here, here, and here). The activist that I got into a discussion with, sent a long email with the replies from the [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by Bill Price</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13123</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Price</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Geez guys, see how much cleaner SAS code is :)

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geez guys, see how much cleaner SAS code is <img src='http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by Andrew Kniss</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13119</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Kniss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Devon! I had played a little with polr (MASS) but did not know of the ordinal package. Although I agree with Bill that we should probably account for gender in the analysis, I&#039;ve ignored it in the example below just so it is similar to the previous analyses I&#039;ve been conducting.
&lt;pre&gt;
### Ordinal Logistic Regression
inflam&lt;-c(rep(&quot;Nil&quot;,4), rep(&quot;Mild&quot;,31), rep(&quot;Moderate&quot;,29), rep(&quot;Severe&quot;,9),
          rep(&quot;Nil&quot;,8), rep(&quot;Mild&quot;,23), rep(&quot;Moderate&quot;,18), rep(&quot;Severe&quot;,23))
inflam&lt;-factor(inflam,levels=c(&quot;Nil&quot;,&quot;Mild&quot;,&quot;Moderate&quot;,&quot;Severe&quot;),ordered=T)
trt&lt;-c(rep(&quot;nonGM&quot;,73),rep(&quot;GM&quot;,72))
pigs&lt;-data.frame(trt,inflam)
table(pigs$trt,pigs$inflam)

library(ordinal)
olreg&lt;-clm(inflam~trt, data=pigs, link=&quot;logit&quot;)
summary(olreg)
&lt;/pre&gt;
##-- Output: --##
&lt;pre&gt;
&gt; table(pigs$trt,pigs$inflam)
       
        Nil Mild Moderate Severe
  GM      8   23       18     23
  nonGM   4   31       29      9

&gt; summary(olreg)
formula: inflam ~ trt
data:    pigs

 link  threshold nobs logLik  AIC    niter max.grad cond.H 
 logit flexible  145  -183.73 375.46 5(0)  5.29e-08 1.5e+01

Coefficients:
         Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(&gt;&#124;z&#124;)
trtnonGM  -0.3893     0.3060  -1.272    0.203
&lt;/pre&gt;
So, another analysis (probably the &quot;best&quot; analysis for this data) shows no significant difference between treatment groups.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Devon! I had played a little with polr (MASS) but did not know of the ordinal package. Although I agree with Bill that we should probably account for gender in the analysis, I&#8217;ve ignored it in the example below just so it is similar to the previous analyses I&#8217;ve been conducting.</p>
<pre>
### Ordinal Logistic Regression
inflam< -c(rep("Nil",4), rep("Mild",31), rep("Moderate",29), rep("Severe",9),
          rep("Nil",8), rep("Mild",23), rep("Moderate",18), rep("Severe",23))
inflam<-factor(inflam,levels=c("Nil","Mild","Moderate","Severe"),ordered=T)
trt<-c(rep("nonGM",73),rep("GM",72))
pigs<-data.frame(trt,inflam)
table(pigs$trt,pigs$inflam)

library(ordinal)
olreg<-clm(inflam~trt, data=pigs, link="logit")
summary(olreg)
</pre>
<p>##-- Output: --##</p>
<pre>
> table(pigs$trt,pigs$inflam)
       
        Nil Mild Moderate Severe
  GM      8   23       18     23
  nonGM   4   31       29      9

> summary(olreg)
formula: inflam ~ trt
data:    pigs

 link  threshold nobs logLik  AIC    niter max.grad cond.H 
 logit flexible  145  -183.73 375.46 5(0)  5.29e-08 1.5e+01

Coefficients:
         Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(>|z|)
trtnonGM  -0.3893     0.3060  -1.272    0.203
</pre>
<p>So, another analysis (probably the "best" analysis for this data) shows no significant difference between treatment groups.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by Devon Ryan</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13116</link>
		<dc:creator>Devon Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Bill,

Yes, logit is as you described (I think it&#039;s the default, but I didn&#039;t want to chance that the default was &quot;probit&quot;).

I don&#039;t have any big disagreements regarding accounting for a gender:treatment interaction. I only mentioned that above since, as I&#039;m not familiar with pig gastric inflammation (I&#039;m a neuroscientist by training...), I don&#039;t know if there&#039;s some compelling prior information for including or excluding it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bill,</p>
<p>Yes, logit is as you described (I think it&#8217;s the default, but I didn&#8217;t want to chance that the default was &#8220;probit&#8221;).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have any big disagreements regarding accounting for a gender:treatment interaction. I only mentioned that above since, as I&#8217;m not familiar with pig gastric inflammation (I&#8217;m a neuroscientist by training&#8230;), I don&#8217;t know if there&#8217;s some compelling prior information for including or excluding it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by Bill Price</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13115</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Price</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13115</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for adding R code Devon.  Small differences in numeric results could arise from the estimation methods and specific numeric algorithms used.  I assume &quot;logit&quot; in this case defaults to the cumulative logit for multinomial data (this is what Proc Logistic does).  Interesting note: a generalized logit, which is not really a good choice for ordinal data, gives a significant difference for the TRT effect in this data.

IMO, it is necessary to include gender in the model or analyze them separately.  Gender and its interaction with treatment is a potential source of variability and should be accounted for in the model.  There is no reason to expect that genders would react similarly to the treatments.  Some people will suggest that, because gender is non-significant, we can ignore it when modeling.  I do not subscribe to that line of thought, however.  Non-significance does not imply no effect, AKA, never accept the null hypothesis.  It was a factor in the design and should be accounted for in the model.

Glad to see so many people familiar with R out there.  although it is not a package I know well, it is a powerful tool.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for adding R code Devon.  Small differences in numeric results could arise from the estimation methods and specific numeric algorithms used.  I assume &#8220;logit&#8221; in this case defaults to the cumulative logit for multinomial data (this is what Proc Logistic does).  Interesting note: a generalized logit, which is not really a good choice for ordinal data, gives a significant difference for the TRT effect in this data.</p>
<p>IMO, it is necessary to include gender in the model or analyze them separately.  Gender and its interaction with treatment is a potential source of variability and should be accounted for in the model.  There is no reason to expect that genders would react similarly to the treatments.  Some people will suggest that, because gender is non-significant, we can ignore it when modeling.  I do not subscribe to that line of thought, however.  Non-significance does not imply no effect, AKA, never accept the null hypothesis.  It was a factor in the design and should be accounted for in the model.</p>
<p>Glad to see so many people familiar with R out there.  although it is not a package I know well, it is a powerful tool.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by Devon Ryan</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13112</link>
		<dc:creator>Devon Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Funny, I was scrolling through the comments to see if anyone had just used an ordinal logistic regression, since that&#039;s really the correct way to do things. The in R is below (I use the &quot;ordinal&quot; package, since it gives p-values, unlike polr in MASS):
&lt;pre&gt;
library(ordinal)
d &lt;- data.frame(
    Severity = as.factor(c(rep(c(0,1,2,3),4))),
    Treatment = c(rep(c(rep(&quot;NoGMO&quot;,4),rep(&quot;GMO&quot;,4)),2)),
    Gender = c(rep(&quot;M&quot;, 8), rep(&quot;F&quot;, 8)),
    Count = c(1,16,17,2,4,12,12,8,3,15,12,7,4,11,6,15)
)
summary(clm(Severity ~ Gender*Treatment, weights=Count, data=d, link=&quot;logit&quot;))
&lt;/pre&gt;
The results are about the same as those from SAS. I&#039;m unsure that a Gender:Treatment interaction makes biological sense, so one can simply use a &quot;+&quot; instead of the &quot;*&quot;, but the results don&#039;t really change. Likewise, you can simply ignore gender and the results are still similarly non-significant (unsurprisingly).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny, I was scrolling through the comments to see if anyone had just used an ordinal logistic regression, since that&#8217;s really the correct way to do things. The in R is below (I use the &#8220;ordinal&#8221; package, since it gives p-values, unlike polr in MASS):</p>
<pre>
library(ordinal)
d &lt;- data.frame(
    Severity = as.factor(c(rep(c(0,1,2,3),4))),
    Treatment = c(rep(c(rep(&quot;NoGMO&quot;,4),rep(&quot;GMO&quot;,4)),2)),
    Gender = c(rep(&quot;M&quot;, 8), rep(&quot;F&quot;, 8)),
    Count = c(1,16,17,2,4,12,12,8,3,15,12,7,4,11,6,15)
)
summary(clm(Severity ~ Gender*Treatment, weights=Count, data=d, link=&quot;logit&quot;))
</pre>
<p>The results are about the same as those from SAS. I&#039;m unsure that a Gender:Treatment interaction makes biological sense, so one can simply use a &quot;+&quot; instead of the &quot;*&quot;, but the results don&#039;t really change. Likewise, you can simply ignore gender and the results are still similarly non-significant (unsurprisingly).</p>
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		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by Steve Kass</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13108</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Kass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, and glad to know you&#039;re used to brusque criticism. Of course, you&#039;re right that the mean is a valid measure of central tendency if the coding reflects the spacing. My sharp answer probably comes out of my own frustration at the end of each semester I teach statistics, as I&#039;m seemingly unable to teach some of these concepts (like &quot;The mean is not a valid measure of central tendency for ordinal data.&quot;) in a way that sticks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, and glad to know you&#8217;re used to brusque criticism. Of course, you&#8217;re right that the mean is a valid measure of central tendency if the coding reflects the spacing. My sharp answer probably comes out of my own frustration at the end of each semester I teach statistics, as I&#8217;m seemingly unable to teach some of these concepts (like &#8220;The mean is not a valid measure of central tendency for ordinal data.&#8221;) in a way that sticks.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Laurie Garrett gets things surprisingly wrong on the Colbert Report by Liz</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/laurie-garrett-gets-things-surprisingly-wrong-on-the-colbert-report/comment-page-1/#comment-13105</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 17:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=938#comment-13105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I listened to her speak last fall about influenza epidemics, and while she was sharp on some issues, she was very wrong about others, includig how long it would take to do a directed evolution project and the risks involved.  I think some f this s shaped by her national defense mindset from the think tank.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I listened to her speak last fall about influenza epidemics, and while she was sharp on some issues, she was very wrong about others, includig how long it would take to do a directed evolution project and the risks involved.  I think some f this s shaped by her national defense mindset from the think tank.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by Bill Price</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13104</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Price</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 16:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, I&#039;ve tried to avoid this, but to no avail :)  There are many ways to approach data with statistics, each with their own set of assumptions.  Sometimes the assumptions are tolerable, and other times they may not be.  Andrew&#039;s t-test analysis of &quot;scores&quot; does make some big assumptions, namely that the proportional change in scores corresponds to proportional changes in severity.  As Steve points out and Andrew acknowledges, that assumption here is a bit much.

I&#039;ve had some requests regarding another analysis of this data, so I&#039;ll put it here.  Data of this type is often handled using logistic regression, and the ordinal aspect using a cumulative logit transformation.  Below is such an analysis (in SAS. Sorry, I am not up to speed in R).  I have also incorporated gender into the treatment structure as a 2 x 2 factorial.  Is this the correct analysis?  Maybe, if you accept the assumptions :)

&lt;pre&gt;
data pig;
	input severity trt$ gender $ count;
	cards;
	0	NoGMO	M	1
	1	NoGMO	M	16
	2	NoGMO	M	17
	3	NoGMO	M	2
	0	GMO	M	4
	1	GMO	M	12
	2	GMO	M	12
	3	GMO	M	8
	0	NoGMO	F	3
	1	NoGMO	F	15
	2	NoGMO	F	12
	3	NoGMO	F	7
	0	GMO	F	4
	1	GMO	F	11
	2	GMO	F	6
	3	GMO	F	15
;

proc logistic;
	class trt gender;
 	weight count;
	model severity =gender trt gender*trt;
	oddsratio trt ;
run;
&lt;/pre&gt;

-- Partial Results --
&lt;pre&gt;
               Type 3 Analysis of Effects

                                       Wald
             Effect          DF     Chi-Square    Pr &gt; ChiSq

             gender           1        0.9547        0.3285
             trt              1        1.7931        0.1805
             trt*gender       1        0.4476        0.5035

       Odds Ratio Estimates and Wald Confidence Intervals

Label                                Estimate         95% CL
trt GMO vs NoGMO at gender=F         0.543       0.234     1.259
trt GMO vs NoGMO at gender=M         0.815       0.350     1.896
&lt;/pre&gt;
-- End Partial Results --]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I&#8217;ve tried to avoid this, but to no avail <img src='http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   There are many ways to approach data with statistics, each with their own set of assumptions.  Sometimes the assumptions are tolerable, and other times they may not be.  Andrew&#8217;s t-test analysis of &#8220;scores&#8221; does make some big assumptions, namely that the proportional change in scores corresponds to proportional changes in severity.  As Steve points out and Andrew acknowledges, that assumption here is a bit much.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had some requests regarding another analysis of this data, so I&#8217;ll put it here.  Data of this type is often handled using logistic regression, and the ordinal aspect using a cumulative logit transformation.  Below is such an analysis (in SAS. Sorry, I am not up to speed in R).  I have also incorporated gender into the treatment structure as a 2 x 2 factorial.  Is this the correct analysis?  Maybe, if you accept the assumptions <img src='http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<pre>
data pig;
	input severity trt$ gender $ count;
	cards;
	0	NoGMO	M	1
	1	NoGMO	M	16
	2	NoGMO	M	17
	3	NoGMO	M	2
	0	GMO	M	4
	1	GMO	M	12
	2	GMO	M	12
	3	GMO	M	8
	0	NoGMO	F	3
	1	NoGMO	F	15
	2	NoGMO	F	12
	3	NoGMO	F	7
	0	GMO	F	4
	1	GMO	F	11
	2	GMO	F	6
	3	GMO	F	15
;

proc logistic;
	class trt gender;
 	weight count;
	model severity =gender trt gender*trt;
	oddsratio trt ;
run;
</pre>
<p>&#8211; Partial Results &#8211;</p>
<pre>
               Type 3 Analysis of Effects

                                       Wald
             Effect          DF     Chi-Square    Pr &gt; ChiSq

             gender           1        0.9547        0.3285
             trt              1        1.7931        0.1805
             trt*gender       1        0.4476        0.5035

       Odds Ratio Estimates and Wald Confidence Intervals

Label                                Estimate         95% CL
trt GMO vs NoGMO at gender=F         0.543       0.234     1.259
trt GMO vs NoGMO at gender=M         0.815       0.350     1.896
</pre>
<p>&#8211; End Partial Results &#8211;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on The evidence of GMO harm in pig study is pretty flimsy by Andrew Kniss</title>
		<link>http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2013/06/gmo-pig/comment-page-1/#comment-13103</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Kniss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 16:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/?p=951#comment-13103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, it seems like when taken as a whole, this paper presents far more evidence in support of GM feed safety than against it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it seems like when taken as a whole, this paper presents far more evidence in support of GM feed safety than against it.</p>
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